Jonathan Passmore: From the turning points of coaching’s history to the challenges of digitalization

Hello, my name is Zoltan Csigás, and this is Zoltan Podcast ON COACHING. In this series, I'm talking with internationally renowned coaching scientists and coaches. We explore their personal and professional insights on the science of coaching and the helping professions. Are you interested in how they got close to this profession? Are you curious about the new frontiers they are exploring right now? Join me and listen to the conversation, inspiration, and some fun is ahead. I'm happy to have to in today's episode, Professor Jonathan Pasmore, Senior Vice President of coaching at Coach of the University professor at Henley Business School and a published author of a number of books. And I'm quite sure I'm missing a few things here. Because you are involved in such a wide variety of aspects of coaching. So how should they continue your introduction?

I mean, any of these three big buckets could take hours. But if you let me pick, then, let's focus first on the first thing that you have mentioned the research around the future of coaching, and you mentioned that the article that talks about the current pivotal point where code changes, and I would love to hear your perspective on that. And if you could take a historical perspective, I think that will be even more interesting for our listeners that, in your opinion, what were the key pivot points or milestones in the development of the coaching profession, from a research perspective or without research perspective?

Let me interrupt you before we get to the second point, because what you are telling me then I'm thinking about coaching and mentoring. And is there a difference between those two activities? Because what

I'm going to place any online,

we're going to stay online, why are you going to stay online is super convenient, it means that I can get more coaching done. And I'm really now very familiar and comfortable, the platforms that I'm using, and so are my clients. So not surprisingly, the way that circumstances coming together with the science and the availability of the technology has moved us in to a digital world. And I suspect that for most coaches, most coaching is going to be continuing to be done online. And that has then liberated platform providers such as coach up such as Ezra such as a whole plethora that are out there alongside slack and many of these other channels to really take their product into a new territory into many, many global organizations when the past thing was no need. We've got coaches coming in. And once you're then able to deliver that in a highly cost effective way. The platforms that were popular, have now become ubiquitous.

I tend to agree with all these switches, and they're going at least two points in which I will, I would go forward. One, let me take one step back to the science of coaching that you've mentioned, and that it is here and it is available. And you you've said it quite clearly that we have conclusive evidence of what are the circumstances and what are the active ingredients? And can you give us a recap on what are the most important ingredients or circumstances? Because in my readings, I don't see that conclusive evidence. But that's why we have you who have of course.

That's it's a tricky question, because it's a complex question. It's a complex question because we

reflect let me rephrase it. So in your understanding what are the five most important active ingredients that you consider to have been properly evidenced, and we all know that there is no such a thing as perfect evidence in such a scientific field as coaching where we don't have one cent zeros or measurable particles.

So I would say first of all, humans are complex, and they vary. And that's why you don't get consistent results in the same way that you might do if you're baking bread. So baking bread, you put the ingredients together, assuming you've got an oven that is consistent in terms of its temperature, assuming you're using the same ingredients of, of flour and the other ingredients, you follow that recipe, and you've got the same ones time and time. But at the same temperature on the oven, you're the same water mix. And you've got also a controlled environment in which you're baking. So your kitchen is at the same temperature, then you're gonna get consistent results. Already, you can see, even in a scientific process, it's a little bit more complicated than a Delia Smith recipe. She's a baker, a chef. So as we think about that, to humans, so let me just put it as humans, five factors you have asked for number one, I think is that the client who is engaging in coaching, or any process, any learning process needs to be ready and willing to engage. And without that commitment from the client, you can send people to coaching, you can take the horse to water, but the horse needs to want to drink and the coachee needs to want to engage in the process, they need to be having a growth mindset, they need to be at a point where they're ready to have open disclosure. And the possibility of identifying new insights are actions that they want to progress. If you have the client sitting in front of you who's just folds their arms and doesn't want to talk, it doesn't want to engage, there's going to be no progress. So there's some features around the individual coaching. I think a second feature there are what we need to pay some attention to, is the whole process around the coaching relationship. So how the coach goes about building trust. And there are a number of features around this have some evidence, again, the evidence is not overwhelming conclusive that the same factors apply for every individual or awaited in the same way. But generally, the coach prior to meeting needs to have some credibility in the eyes of the client. And that credibility might be to do with their background, their training, their experience, it could also be to do with personal factors such as gender and race, that will predispose the client to be more willing to engage in the process with that specific individual. Then there is the whole process of building the relationship. And Carl Rogers has talked extensively in a therapeutic area about the necessary and sufficient conditions, that helps us build the relationship. And I talk about those about creating a container for the work that needs to take place. And there are some who have argued that actually, that's all we need, Rogers would say they're both necessary, and they're sufficient. For me, they're necessary, but they're not sufficient. If we instead add other ingredients, we can bake the bread to get a better rise. In other words, we can achieve faster outcomes or more change. If we add in more ingredients. If we add in a yeast, we will get more rice, if we add in other approaches that will enhance the coaching process to produce better outcomes. But at the very starting point, there needs to be this relationship. And that partly credibility. And that's partly about the way that the coach contracts or set some boundaries that enable the client to feel as though this is a relationship where they can be open or honest. So confidentiality would be an important part of that process. It builds trust in the relationship. And then the other other aspects that continue to facilitate the relationship with a building trust is about the way that the coach works with them in terms of listening and providing the space for the client to tell their story. So second, second ingredient. I think the third ingredient that's important for us to pay some attention to is, of course, what does success look like? So defining what success is. So we might describe that about goal setting. And there is much discussion about well, it's really important to set clear goals is important to set approach goals in the work that we're doing. So those aspects can be useful for the client as they are moving forward towards those goals. There are others who will say well, coaching can be broader than goal coaching, it can be simply providing a space for the client to reflect. But we can only measure its effectiveness and we're clear at the beginning what we're seeking to measure. So it may be insight may be a factor. And as long as we establish a clear objective for the coaching conversation, it has a focus then we can measure whether it's an effective outcome. And the evidence is that actually having clear goals, it's more likely that we're then able to help individuals to move towards those goals. So a focus for the conversation could be goals, that helps people to move forward. A fourth factor that I think is helpful in this is drawing upon the wider therapeutic knowledge that's out there. And so let's take one specific example of this cognitive behavioral therapy, highly evidence based, hundreds of randomized control trials, all of those show that individuals are able to think about their thinking, help them to develop a recognition of their connections between their thoughts, emotions, and behaviors, and then to become more choice Phul in their progression to a resolution of their faulty thinking, and to move closer towards their goal attainment. So by taking a therapeutic approach, and applying that in a coaching context, to build quantifiable coaching, as a method for working with clients, well that provides is evidence that certain types of interventions, so helping the connection between those three aspects of what it is to be human, and the other elements of cognitive behavioral coaching, in terms of adopting and more evidence based thinking, can be helpful for clients in a coaching conversation. And then the last element five, we can go on for 15, if you like, but let's stick with five, let's fix it with fire indeed. So the fifth element to talk about in terms of the role that coaching has built, a built of evidence, is the element for coaching at the end, to have this review process, where clients are able to go back to that goal and then say, actually, I've been able to make progress on this towards this goal. So in a way, what we're doing, at the beginning, is having an end in mind, the comparison with therapy, which is never ending. So if you're Woody Allen, you can carry on therapy for 30 years. And how do you judge that it's successful is helpful. One might argue, therapeutic conversations of that type may be very pleasurable, may be very internally rewarding. Have some great our my therapist there, but our little more than intellectual masturbation, and I think coaching provides, if we're clear about evaluating at the end, we start with an end in mind, we work towards that end, it a nails allows the client to get into the relationship in saying I've now achieved the outcome that I set about. And that brings it to a natural conclusion. And so we are able to do with the client is then able to step outside of the relationship to once again take personal responsibility for their life.

Thank you This was a clear and focused recap for me. And I really appreciate you putting all those together. And there was another thing I wanted to pick up. Because there was one thing about science and the other thing you said that now we have the technology. And they have to admit that our technology front as well. So at least I have at least four screens in front of me right now. But fortunately, one of them is active. In your research. And in your experience. How do you say this technology just an enabler of moving these conversations into the online space? Or do we already see technology as an adventure of things? Is there an added value besides making the conversations possible? And how is this and why I'm asking the question, not just know that curiosity, but I had conversations where the phrase, the sacred human nature for coaching conversation was brought to our attention. And some of my colleagues were arguing that well, that's the essence of coaching, as you have mentioned, people meeting and magic that happens. And I don't see people, as you mentioned using apps, and not just for having the conversation per se I just as we're having zoom as a background. So how do you say this enabler versus advancer approaches? Like you face it that way?

I'm just checking your time. And as I have a number of follow up questions, from all the things you have said and I can just stop for a quiet time, how much time do we have?

So it probably is beginning to draw things towards a close.

Okay. I just phased out from wandering. Okay. Sorry for that. So, all these sounds very interesting and they will see the content you were raising, and from a coach's perspective. Even from the researchers perspective, I would have questions around. How is the presence of these digital platforms affect trust, for example, or the relationship between coach and coachee? How can I know as a coachee, that my coach is not using some other tools to engage with me, let's say, an AI that would analyze my emotional status at any given moment, or, or vocabulary or something, have a cheat sheet on, you know, on how to communicate with me, or what could be my keywords based on whatever profiling the other party has done. So I do have a lot of questions on how these technologies affect the relationship besides being enablers. Because what you are saying and what we are all experiencing that being connected with whoever we want to be connected in the world is a fantastic thing. It leads to the, to the democratization of coaching, I think we can say that it is more scalable and reach and there's more available for everyone. But I do see a number of aspects that challenge the Akuti challenge the fundamental nature of coaching relationships. So trust presents touch. And I would be interested to hear research on how this goes forward. But I think these are just questions, let's say for our next conversation. So I was very happy to have you. Thank you for all your insights and comment. And is there anything else you would like to say the closing remarks, things from you that we should share with your listeners.

So I'm Thank you very much for the invitation to join you. As always, Zoltan, it was a pleasure having a conversation, I'm really happy to come back and carry on our conversation in another time. And I guess my one appeal to colleagues who are listening into the call is a an invitation to participate and to collaborate and research. Third, academics in institutions need to connect with professional bodies need to connect with Coach service providers like Coach up and need to connect with individual coaches. And only when all of those parties come together, can we build the scale and scope of the research that we as an industry need to take us in our next step in the developmental journey of our industry?

Thank you. And here is Ross, one question for that, to make things very practical. What could be the one step that any coach out there could do to engage with research? What would be your recommendation how to connect to this world of academics and knowledge creation?

So I think there are I can never get away with one. So there are two. So number one, number one is to make a commitment to engaging in reading and thinking about coaching research, so practice stays up to date. And the second piece is to collaborate with professional bodies or with a local university to help the students who are there work with academics who are there or work with a professional body as they carry out research studies. So when those opportunities come along, that coaches volunteer, they give a little bit of their time to invest back in the profession to help us to take the knowledge of coaching forward.

Thank you. Thank you for listening to on coaching podcast, where I have curious conversations with virginal coaches and researchers. If you enjoyed this episode, make sure to rate us and subscribe. I also invite you to visit Zolt educational comm where you can access more resources regarding the coaching industry very well.