E2 | Lead by Listening | Patrick Donadio

Welcome to lead with a coaching mindset, a podcast where every conversation sparks new ideas on how the best leaders unlock their followers potential. I am Dr Damian Goldberg, and I am here to inspire you to become the best leader you can be be sure you subscribe and rate us. Let's jump right in. Welcome to a new episode of Lead with a coaching mindset. I am your host, Dr Damian Goldberg, and today we are going to be talking about active listening. But what is active listening? It's different than hearing. Hearing is a physiological act, but listening includes paying attention, showing interest and demonstrating understanding. And when we are paying attention, we are not paying attention only to what is said, But how is said. What is underlying, what is not said, what may be some of the emotions, what may be some of the beliefs that people are expressing. So when we are listening, we are showing interest in going beyond what the words are saying. As leaders, we need to spend time listening to our collaborators. If we do not listen, if we do not spend time understanding them, then our relationships may suffer. A key element of developing a coaching mindset includes listening to people and showing understanding. So how do we do that? Well, we pay attention not only to what people are seeing in the moment, but what they have said before, and how it's connected to what they are saying. And we call that linear and non linear listening. The linear listening is paying attention to the last thing that was said, and the non linear listening is listening to the whole is connecting what people are saying now to what they have said before, or at other time, when we're active listening, we're also paying attention to the context, what's happening around US, and how is that affecting us. We pay attention to values. We pay attention to limiting beliefs that our collaborators may have. One way to demonstrate active listening is by summarizing, paraphrasing, asking questions that show that we are following our colleagues in active listening, we also are curious about emotions, so we are paying attention to what may be behind the verbal and nonverbal cues, the tone of voice, the body Language, all of that help us to communicate, collaborate and engage in more effective relationships. Now let's welcome Patrick Donadio, who is going to join us to have a conversation about how we can develop our listening skills. Welcome to lead with a coaching mindset. I am Dr Damian Goldberg, and I am going to be the host today, and I am very glad to have here with us, Patrick Donadio, who is also like me, master certified coach, a professional certified speaker. We have a lot in common. We have been training leaders for many years. And for the topic of active listening, I thought he will be the perfect person to join us, to share a lot of the work he has been doing for the last 20 years, maybe or more. Yeah, he wrote a book communicating with impact, sharing a model that I am asking him to share with you. And also, we are going to be having a conversation about the challenges of active listening. So Patrick, welcome. Welcome to our podcast. Great to see you. Damian, great to have you here. And why don't we start talking about that model that you developed to help leaders to communicate with impact,

be happy to and you know, I love this topic about active listening, and it's really one of the six keys in my impact process. So I'm just going to take about maybe 90 seconds, I want to review the impact model with everybody, and then we're going to really dive in a lot into active listening. So I created this process because I really believe that when you have a system or a process, you get a much better result. And so I think leaders who really want to lead more effectively need to think about being more strategic. And this is a pretty much a good strategic tool. So the impact model is an acronym, so The I stands for the intention, right? The first step to every great communication is to think before you speak. So really, what's your intention for being an effective communicator? What's your intention for this particular message? And. We'll dive into a little bit about how you need to have a like a coaching mindset as a leader. That's kind of the intention. The M is the message and the method. So once you know what the intention is, I like to say, Think before you speak, and then I like to say, you know, intent drives content. So now, how do you create a message and what's the right method for you to pick to most effectively achieve this particular intention. That's the M step. The P is the person right. Personalize the message. Even though we have a great intention and we have a really good message, we pick the right method. Everybody's different. You and I are different, right? We have different personality styles, different cultural backgrounds. So you want to make sure you personalize the message to the receiver. And in this step, it's important to think about how your personality style might also impact the communication in the relationship. So that's the imp, or I like to say I am planning right? And then the second half of the model, again, impact the AC, t part is, how do you think about the delivery? So in the a step, we take a look at both active listening and active engagement, and we're going to spend a lot more time today on this active listening component, and that is, how do you stay present? And how do you keep your receiver present? In the process of the C is clarify, so even though we've communicated, well, there's a lot of misunderstanding. Something called selective perception happens. And so what are you going to do to make sure you both get the same message? How do you check or clarify for understanding? And then the last step of the process is transform. Because again, everything comes back to the intention. So how do you transform this communication, this message, this conversation, into the intention we set? And in the transformation step, I take a look at two types of transformations, external transformations and internal transformations. So I think we might even touch on that a little bit when we talk about the coaching mindset. So there you go. Damien, it's a pretty, you know, easy process to understand, maybe not as easy to implement, but I think if you really want to be a great communicator and you follow the six keys, it's going to really help you as a leader. Yeah.

Patrick, I believe that effective leaders need to communicate effectively. And part of developing and cultivating a coaching mindset means being intentional, talking about the intention the first step about how we are not only expressing ourselves, but also showing understanding and being sure that our message lands the way that we want, because many times, our intentions may be one thing and the way we communicate, the tone of voice, the words that we choose, are not the best ones for our intention, for what we want to accomplish. So bringing some awareness, I do believe a key for effective leadership and developing a coaching mindset is awareness, is being aware of how we are communicating in our conversation, people are listening to us and in that dialog, how we can be more effective in engaging people, so we can CO, create, collaborate and build these partnerships that when they are not present, it's much more difficult to get extraordinary results. I

agree 100% and we talked about, you know, the intention. And I think really good leaders need to be thinking about their role is different than when they're a manager or when they're an employee, right? Leaders need to be thinking about how to be more empowering, how to ask better questions. It's not about telling and directing. That's kind of the old style of of leadership, really, that's kind of almost like more of a manager. So first step is put on what I call that coaching hat, or that coaching mindset. So as you know, I do, and you do as well, a lot of speaking and training. When I'm a speaker, right? I have a little phrase. I say, I'm the sage on the stage. I do a lot more talking. I do a lot more directing. But when I'm a coach, I put on my coaching hat, and I say that I'm the guide by their side. My first role is to help people come to the conclusion or get them to explore a little bit deeper. So with the active listening, number one is you got to be in the right mindset. If you're thinking about doing a lot of talking, you're not going to be an active listener. So the intention step, or the mindset step, is very, very important.

And Patrick, in my experience, I have been also like you, teaching communication skills and active listening skills for 30 years, and till my partner sometimes ask me, Damian, you are not listening. I think that we, in some way as human beings, are not wired to listen. We are listening to our inner voice. And so what suggestion do you have to deal with these challenges, how people can really pay attention to be more effective at active listening? Yeah, I mean,

the first step, I think, is really important for all of the listeners to understand why it's hard to be a good listener. Two main reasons. Number one, we don't have a lot of listening skills training. I don't know about you, but I've been like you, communicating and training for years, and I always ask people the same question in my communications workshop, how many of you have had a 60 or 90 minute listening skills workshop? And you know, we get maybe less than 15% of the people raised their hands. So number one challenge is we're not really teaching listening skills as much as we could be now. It's getting better, but it's still not where we'd like it to be. The second reason it's hard to be a good listener. Listener is because genetically, as you said, we're wired differently, right? We can think three times faster than people can speak. So there's a natural gap between how fast our mind works and how fast people are talking with us. So you go back to awareness, you need to remind yourself that if you're not really present, if you're not really actively engaged, you're not going to be a good listener, because your mind is going to tend to tend to wander. So that's the first thing is, be aware of those two roadblocks. The second thing is, now, what do you do? Right? Okay, I've had some training, or I understand that I've got this block. Well, I think, to me, one of the most important things is to walk into the conversation with the idea that I'm going to be that leader, coach, and whenever possible. You know, unless, again, what's the intention of the meeting? If my meeting is to, like, tell people the new policy. That's different then. But most of the time, let's say you have a one on one meeting. How do you stay present? Well, I think the best way to stay present is having a good questions. So I don't know about you, Damien, but when I started coaching, I started to come up with some of my best coaching questions. So I'm gonna challenge our listeners today to start thinking about, what are some really good tools in your toolbox? It's like some really good questions to help you start to dive into and get people to start to explore and talk about what you're trying to figure you know, my wife was a physician, and I remember years ago, she always said, diagnose before you prescribe. Right? So leaders and coaching leaders, we need to ask questions to diagnose. So number one is, have a good toolbox of questions.

And you know questions I also ask. When I train leaders, how effective are you at asking questions? And you cannot ask good questions if you're not listening, they go to exactly I think sometimes the wisdom of leaders are around. How effective are you at thinking? How I can make other person think, holding the space for people to think versus sharing your wisdom or your experience, that there is always space for mentoring and teaching and sharing information experiences, but it's more difficult to hold the space for people to think, to come up with their own solutions, and in this Active listening when we're talking here, one of the ways to be effective is at asking questions. What other strategies we can use to demonstrate active listening other than asking questions?

Well, I think first of all, it's important to know your personality style, the P Step. If you're like an extroverted, analytical person, you're probably have a hard time with listening. You probably want to talk a lot, you probably interrupt maybe more than you should. Maybe even leave enough space for people to respond. So think about the person you're communicating with and adjust the way you interact. If I'm interacting with, let's say, a very direct leader, I may have very short, closed ended questions, right? If I'm interacting with a very introverted employee, I may have more open ended questions with lots of pauses, so not just having questions, having the right kind of questions. Number two is, how do you stay present? Right? So it's active listening. So sometimes, for example, if it's appropriate, you could say, Hey, it's okay. If I take a few notes, it really helps me process a little bit. So taking notes sometimes could be a way to stay present. Another way to stay present, is something I talk about called the internal summary technique, right? Particularly extroverts, we like to talk. So what you do is, when someone's talking with you, you're doing a little internal summary. So you're kind of using that gap between how fast you think and how fast they talk to do some internal dialog. For example, let's say you're talking to me, Damien, saying, I really had a rough day. You're saying, oh, rough day in your mind, yeah, I got this new employee who I'm really struggling with. They don't seem to be coming on time, but they're not coming on time. So if you kind of use some keywords to fill that gap, I call the internal summary. It helps you again, stay present. It helps you listen. And when you feel some dissonance between what they're saying and what you're trying to get, then the second piece is to figure out how you're going to politely interject another question. Because with extroverts, for example, you could have a two hour conversation if you're not careful. So you need to kind of help bring them in a little bit. Or with introverts, you might say, so how is everything going today? Fine. Like, okay, well, so then you say to yourself, I have to ask more open ended questions, like, tell me about your day. Damien, you can't say, Fine. So these are a few other tools, and we can go a lot deeper. But I want I

like, I like this internal summary. Let me demonstrate it like you. Before you talk, you mentioned open ended and close ended questions. So I noticed that, and it's okay. We need to come back to that, because many people may not know what they are. So shut for clarification, open ended questions are the one that invite you to speak and explain yourself, versus closed ended question that you answer with yes and no and many times, are guiding you to where you want to go. So this is one other way to distinguish open from closed ended questions, but summarizing also what you heard, what you understood, because we say what we say, and people listen what they listen. So we never know what they have listened from what we say. So we do not check. We are not sure what we said landed in other people checking to be sure that whatever we said was heard in the way that we intended. Yeah,

and you know, I've got another tool that I like to call. Call. It's called reverse summary. So instead of me summarizing, I ask the other person to summarize. So and this is really common. I think we do this in coaching sessions, like, hey Damien, as we wrap up our session today, what would you say are some of your best takeaways from our call today? Right? So I'm not gonna say to you, Damian, remember we talked about A, B and C. I'm gonna ask you, what were some of your best takeaways, and that's putting you in the driver's seat. I'm giving you one more chance to help me understand and get clear. And if you don't cover all the things that I think you should have covered, then I can add to it by using the word and not the word, but, you know,

and at the end of the session, it's also important to clarify expectation for what is next. Yes, many times people have these challenging conversations, but at the end, there is not clarity about what is happening next. So be aware that, like in the conversation, you have an intention how you want to start the conversation, you listen, and at the end, you ask, okay, so what is your commitment? What is your understanding of what we discussed? And what are you going to do next? That's not to forget that wrap up question at the end of the conversation, to be sure that you are in the same place,

yeah? And that's what I call an external transformation, right? And you want to make sure that you're moving people towards the intention. So one of the things I love to say is, for every what, identify a who and ask when, right? And that's part of that external transformation. Also, guess what? Active listening doesn't end when the conversation's over or the meeting's over, it ends when the intention is achieved. So a lot of times, conversations are going to be two, three or four times. It's not just like I have a one and done, sometimes it is. So you're right on target about active listening, and you mentioned clarification. Again, that's another area for some toolbox questions, like there are open ended questions, there are closed ended questions, there are clarifying questions. So Damien, when you say you'll have it to me sometime soon, tell me more about that, right? So I'm clarifying, because I don't know what sometime soon means like or, for example, I talk about, we're going to start having bi weekly meetings. So Damian, what does it mean when I say bi weekly? Do you know the answer? What does bi weekly mean to you?

Yeah, can be different. For some people, maybe twice a week and forever, maybe every other

week Exactly. So again, we need to clarify, because people like, Okay, I'll start showing up, and then you're here this week twice and no one came. Like, oh, what's going on? So clarifying questions are another tool for your toolbox.

Yeah, that's something great tips for our listeners, I like to distinguish also between hearing and listening. That inherently more physiological act versus listening when you are showing understanding, right? And

listening is also active in the sense that I'm not just going to listen with my ears, right? I'm going to listen with my eyes. I'm going to be seeing what's happening like you're nodding your head right now. People can't see the video, but you're nodding your head right now. So I'm assuming that means you're agreeing with me, but I don't know. So when you're listening with your eyes and you feel like, is that what he means, then I'm going to maybe ask you a question. Hey, Damien, I see you nodding. I'm assuming you're on. You're agreeing with me, and you're going to go, yes, no, I'm not.

Well, sometimes, in some cultures, you know, people move their heads, yes, necessarily what we understand for years or no. Another cultural factor also in communication and in listening, that can be also source of misunderstandings in terms of cultural expectations.

Exactly, I remember when I was a goodwill ambassador to Japan, and they told us, before we went over on our trip, they said couple things. Number one, don't stare, don't make a lot of eye contact. And this is again, you know, probably 15 years ago, so maybe different, but they mentioned that, you know, the culture is different. And they said sometimes, you know, that one of the things you'll hear is they keep saying yes, you know, like, height, height, and they're saying yes and they're saying yes, that doesn't mean that they agree with you. That means, Ah, okay, okay. And so, like, I heard a story where a salesperson was, like, so excited, because they said, Yes, yes, yes, yes. And they said, Okay, when would you like to buy? And they said, We don't want to buy. So he just kept saying, yes. Well, that means I'm listening. Yes, yeah.

Very different, very different. Now, other distinction in when we are active listening is when we listen what I like to say in a linear and non linear way now we're listening for the last thing that somebody said that the linear way, and listening in a non linear way is we're listening not only what's happening now, but connecting that with what was said before in the conversation, or what was it in a different conversation. What you're saying, that sometimes the communication happened in different conversations. So by being present and connected, also when we are listening, we are connecting what we are listening right now to what's something that happened before, and we're putting things together and looking at bigger picture. So I like to distinguish the. Lenient for the non linear listening. I believe in leadership. Both are important,

right? And I think the more present you are, the more easy it is to get with the non with the linear listening, right? So you're picking up all the pieces, like putting a puzzle together, and again, that's when you feel like I have a puzzle piece that's missing. Again, it's active listening. Don't just sit there and let them keep talking for another 10 minutes. You know, you politely find an opportunity to come back and then maybe ask a clarifying question, because you can feel like I'm not sure if I understand exactly what you're saying.

Patrick, we need to start wrapping up any last idea that you would like to share with our listeners.

Well, I just want to encourage people that if you've heard a couple ideas today that you think are going to make you a better listener. And I know we've shared at least you know, 10 different things they could do. I'm a big believer of as soon as you hear it, put it into practice. So I hope if you enjoyed this podcast today, and I know Damian you, you've had some great guests on our friend Marsha was on the first podcast, a lot of good wisdom. So don't just listen today. Take a moment again. Talk about active listening. Take a moment to listen. Identify what you might want to try and put that into practice, right? And the second thing I just want to remind everybody is, particularly as leaders, is we got to keep reminding ourselves to the higher we go up in the organization, the more important it is to have really good listening. I'm going to kind of wrap up with two quick things. I was coaching a client, one of many clients, but it was one client who recently got the opportunity to move over to the new COO role, right? She was in the C suite already, but she got moved up to the COO role, and we were talking, and I was so proud of her, because she said to me, You know what I'm going to do when I start? I'm going to go on a listening tour. I'm going to start the first few months, just going around to all the different they had, like different offices in different offices in different parts of the country and go on a listening tour. So she was really understanding the Empower of being a good leader means making sure you're listening and understanding where people are so and then the last thing I guess I'd like to share is my favorite quote I pretty much closed every workshop with this is that nothing changes until you change, right? So awareness is the first key. I think we created a lot of awareness today. Now you got some good ideas, and hopefully you put some of these things into practice, and you too can be become a better listener, more importantly, become a leader who makes a greater impact.

Patrick, was great to have you here. I hope you come back in the future. And thank you very much for all of the wisdom that you shared today.

Thank You for having me,

and that's a wrap up for today's LEAD with a coaching mindset. I am. Damien Goldberg, thrilled to have shared this time with you. Don't forget to subscribe and give us a rating. Stay excited for more episodes. Take care and keep living with a coaching mindset.